What's The Dolly World Coming To?

[dianareed]

Hi Everyone...

I need to vent, since my heart is hurting for our beloved community. I'm seeing more and more doll scammers and time wasters surfacing; more so than usual. Our community is growing, and with it comes some undesirables who will try to cheat us out of our dolls, money, or both.

Firstly, let me say, here, that I know the majority of us in the doll community, both artists and collectors, are lovely, caring, and trustworthy people, and I'm proud to know and do business with every one of you. I'm addressing those individuals who are infiltrating the doll world and attempt to cheat, and too many times, succeed in cheating, both artists and collectors.

Recently, a well-known artist has gone through so much hell with a scammer, that she is now asking for references from prospective buyers that she doesn't know. I can't say as I blame her. What she went through was horrendous. I just went through two days of hell with a time-waster. I'm just about done posting dolls for sale on FB. I retracted one doll's sale page, and I might do the same for the second one. At least, here on DF, there are reviews of both buyers and sellers, and I know most of you, and most of you know me.

It pains me to have to even vent about this problem. I see the scammers groups on FB becoming busier and busier everyday with listings of new and well-known scammers filling their pages. It's a crying shame that we even need groups like that to exist, but apparently, we do. I'm also seeing artists' dolls photos being ripped-off on eBay. I fully understand that when money is involved, especially the with the amounts the high-end dolls demand, the scammers come out of the woodwork, but what happened to honesty and honor? I guess I'm being quite naive.

I'm not sure what can be done about it, but it's come to the point that I am very skeptical about buying from, or selling to, those whom I don't already know and trust.

I wish I had an answer for this very serious issue. Do we now need to ask for references from prospective buyers/sellers? Should we? How sad.

I just needed to vent. Please feel free to comment your opinions, I would love to hear what you each have to say.

Thank you for "listening".

Much Love To All My Dolly Friends.

[Barbara L.]

I feel much the same way.
This is the place I feel trust and friendship, but no one is interested in buying lately.

I only got bidders with 0 feedback or those who "made a mistake" on eBay
and I feel that Facebook is much like selling to an eBay bidder with 0 feedback.
I am sure that some are successful, but I have anxiety about selling to someone I don't "know".

Can a collector sell on etsy?

[NadiaK]

I am sorry for your troubles Diana. I tried selling a few high end dolls on Facebook last year for the first time. My message box was inundated with people that were interested in buying them. Sadly as I got to corresponding with some of the people in more depth, I found out that most of them were kids that had no money and were just time wasters. Even some of the people that were obviously not kids had no intentions of buying. A few people even asked for my paypal address to send payment. Once I sent my paypal info I never heard from them again.
I also had people that offered like $100 for a reborn that I was asking $600 for. And my asking price was much less than the original price. Some went so far to say that I was being unreasonable for refusing their offer. I pretty much told them if they want a quality baby it will cost money. If they want a cheap reborn they will get exactly that. Of course they did not like my reply.
And then of course there were those that want to trade for my baby. But they have nothing of equal value to trade for. Instead they wanted my reborn from a top artist and they would trade for some crappy reborn or old Middleton doll or something. Sadly I found out that selling on Facebook for me was a waste of time and energy. Now I mostly sell on here or sometimes on ebay.

[lastingmemoriesnursery_Debra]

My take on this. The problem lies with emotion. Whenever buying or selling the money aspect needs to be handled as a business transaction not an emotional one. With any client that I have no matter if it is for a booboo painted kit, a kit, reborn baby, or a custom or repair work. I do contracts with them all. Legal signed contracts. I pay extra for adobe to do this but I then have all of their information and their electronic signature. Will it fully protect you. well no nothing can fully protect anyone but it does weed out a lot of the troublemakers. It also helps you with PayPal and God forbid things go really bad you are covered in the legal system as well and have a leg to stand on.

People need to stop paying as friends and family. Period. Doesnt matter if you know the person on line, have spoke to them in emails, private messages, phone calls. If you have not been to their home, or them to yours sat with their families, know their kids and dogs birthday and how their spouses are you are not their friend or their family. My belief asking for money as friends and family is a scam plain and simple. Whomever is asking is scamming PayPal out of their fees, scamming the government out of their taxes so if they are already scamming two different places why in your right mind would you think you may not be the next one that they would scam? When you pay by friends and family you are not "paying" for anything. You are gifting money with no expectations of receiving anything. That is how the law looks at it , that is how paypal looks at it.

Though I am not a huge fan of the scammer boards as they can put out a lot of bad information calling people scammers when they are not, or time wasters (which I hate that term lol) If you have a legitimate scam use them. Present your evidence as you would if you were presenting it to a court of law. STOP letting people get away with it. Everyone is like well I dont like drama, well this person is so well known and well liked and yes a lot of BS will go on with people choosing sides. That is why leave out the emotion. Present your case like you would in a court of law. Then take the next steps. Because all the scammers group is going to do is put the persons name out there to warn others. Follow up with police reports, court etc.

If you walked into a car dealership handed over thousands of dollars in cash for a beautiful red car that is to be delivered. You would not walk out with out a contract, when the car was delivered and it was a zebra print, you would not accept the car and you would either make them replace it or give you your money back. If they did neither you would sue.

It truly boggles my mind that we as women, the most powerful sex on the planet allow people to take advantage of us because we allow our emotions to become involved in it. Leave your emotions for the baby when you receive it. Everything else needs to be handled as we handle all of our other business transactions.

I have been doing this since 2007 with literally thousands of clients and babies made. I have honestly only been truly scammed twice. in all of that time. Which leads me to my next point. If you consistently see someone saying that they were scammed. The problem may in fact lay with them. I am not that lucky of a person lol and no one is that unlucky of a person. Scammers look for vulnerability in people. That is how scams work. they also dont do it ever single transaction. If they did the scam wouldnt work.

Anyhow that is my opinion.

[dianareed]

I feel much the same way.
This is the place I feel trust and friendship, but no one is interested in buying lately.

I only got bidders with 0 feedback or those who "made a mistake" on eBay
and I feel that Facebook is much like selling to an eBay bidder with 0 feedback.
I am sure that some are successful, but I have anxiety about selling to someone I don't "know".

Can a collector sell on etsy?

Yes, I agree, Barbara. I think I'm not going to list my sale dolls on FB anymore. I feel I know most of the people on this forum.

I'm not sure about Etsy, but perhaps it's worth a conversation with someone at Etsy. Let us know if you do and what they say!

[dianareed]

I am sorry for your troubles Diana. I tried selling a few high end dolls on Facebook last year for the first time. My message box was inundated with people that were interested in buying them. Sadly as I got to corresponding with some of the people in more depth, I found out that most of them were kids that had no money and were just time wasters. Even some of the people that were obviously not kids had no intentions of buying. A few people even asked for my paypal address to send payment. Once I sent my paypal info I never heard from them again.
I also had people that offered like $100 for a reborn that I was asking $600 for. And my asking price was much less than the original price. Some went so far to say that I was being unreasonable for refusing their offer. I pretty much told them if they want a quality baby it will cost money. If they want a cheap reborn they will get exactly that. Of course they did not like my reply.
And then of course there were those that want to trade for my baby. But they have nothing of equal value to trade for. Instead they wanted my reborn from a top artist and they would trade for some crappy reborn or old Middleton doll or something. Sadly I found out that selling on Facebook for me was a waste of time and energy. Now I mostly sell on here or sometimes on ebay.

I agree with you, Nadia. I think I will stop selling on FB. Thank you for your input.

[lastingmemoriesnursery_Debra]

I only sell on FB it has been a huge boost to my business. Again just like anywhere though you have to protect yourself. And the good thing about Fb you can block people that aggravate you lol

[Annette]

The internet has made all the scammers and con artists come out of the woodwork. It's so easy now, that it seems there's more of them than honest people.
Personally, I only buy my dolls from members on here that I have known and done dolly deals with before. I don't sell on Facebook, but I have bought some of my doll clothes from on there.
I've only ever been scammed twice, and because of that, I won't buy from or sell to anyone I don't know. I don't know of any other way to protect ourselves from them. They know all the loopholes and cons, that honest people just can't beat them. It's such a shame, because it takes the joy out of our hobby.
So, my purchases and sales will only be here on Doll-Fan.

[Tracy Lorraine]

I feel your pain, Diana. It’s gotten so scary to sell. I strictly sell on DollFan so I can see buyer’s feedback.

[Thia]

I've successfully sold a couple dolls on Facebook, and it did occur to me, Diana, that i would be (potentially) dealing with people i didn't know at all...and that was a bit scary. So, i added the below to each listing i made:

Price is $--- shipped in the USA. I will need proof of positive eBay feedback (at least 15 feedback ratings)...otherwise, payment is by PayPal Friends/Family. My eBay name is 2northwooders and i have 337 transactions/100% positive. I also have an Etsy shop - quietdove - with a 5 star rating.

It's like...i share my feedback, you share yours.

[kd]

There are honest doll artists, and collectors, on FaceBook, however, the real scammers, and thieves, hang out there, too.

[dianareed]

My take on this. The problem lies with emotion. Whenever buying or selling the money aspect needs to be handled as a business transaction not an emotional one. With any client that I have no matter if it is for a booboo painted kit, a kit, reborn baby, or a custom or repair work. I do contracts with them all. Legal signed contracts. I pay extra for adobe to do this but I then have all of their information and their electronic signature. Will it fully protect you. well no nothing can fully protect anyone but it does weed out a lot of the troublemakers. It also helps you with PayPal and God forbid things go really bad you are covered in the legal system as well and have a leg to stand on.

People need to stop paying as friends and family. Period. Doesnt matter if you know the person on line, have spoke to them in emails, private messages, phone calls. If you have not been to their home, or them to yours sat with their families, know their kids and dogs birthday and how their spouses are you are not their friend or their family. My belief asking for money as friends and family is a scam plain and simple. Whomever is asking is scamming PayPal out of their fees, scamming the government out of their taxes so if they are already scamming two different places why in your right mind would you think you may not be the next one that they would scam? When you pay by friends and family you are not "paying" for anything. You are gifting money with no expectations of receiving anything. That is how the law looks at it , that is how paypal looks at it.

Though I am not a huge fan of the scammer boards as they can put out a lot of bad information calling people scammers when they are not, or time wasters (which I hate that term lol) If you have a legitimate scam use them. Present your evidence as you would if you were presenting it to a court of law. STOP letting people get away with it. Everyone is like well I dont like drama, well this person is so well known and well liked and yes a lot of BS will go on with people choosing sides. That is why leave out the emotion. Present your case like you would in a court of law. Then take the next steps. Because all the scammers group is going to do is put the persons name out there to warn others. Follow up with police reports, court etc.

If you walked into a car dealership handed over thousands of dollars in cash for a beautiful red car that is to be delivered. You would not walk out with out a contract, when the car was delivered and it was a zebra print, you would not accept the car and you would either make them replace it or give you your money back. If they did neither you would sue.

It truly boggles my mind that we as women, the most powerful sex on the planet allow people to take advantage of us because we allow our emotions to become involved in it. Leave your emotions for the baby when you receive it. Everything else needs to be handled as we handle all of our other business transactions.

I have been doing this since 2007 with literally thousands of clients and babies made. I have honestly only been truly scammed twice. in all of that time. Which leads me to my next point. If you consistently see someone saying that they were scammed. The problem may in fact lay with them. I am not that lucky of a person lol and no one is that unlucky of a person. Scammers look for vulnerability in people. That is how scams work. they also dont do it ever single transaction. If they did the scam wouldnt work.

Anyhow that is my opinion.

Debra!!! I'm so glad you mentioned contracts!!! My husband is retired, but he was one of Nestle's 1% top executives; he's brilliant (Yes, I know I'm biased. LOL). He dealt with contracts everyday. He sees what these dolls cost, and through me, knows about the transactions that go badly within the community. For several years, now, he has told me that he doesn't understand why contracts aren't being drawn up, especially with the large amounts of money being exchanged for our dolls.

As for Friends and Family...that is something I NEVER agree to. I won't do it whether I'm buying, or selling. Nor will I ever devalue a doll, or under-insure it. It's illegal to lie on a Customs document, in any country. We, here in the USA, are a bit luckier in that we don't pay customs fees.

I recently had an artist devalue and under-insure a blank full body silicone kit I bought, without my okay. The kit came from outside the USA. It was worth $1900, but the artist insured and set a value on the customs documents for only $100; I wasn't happy. Of course, the doll was lost by the shipper (go figure!). So, the artist had to pour me another doll. I told her to declare, and insure the new kit for full value, which she did
I did a YouTube video where I discussed this very topic on my channel.

As for the scammer groups, I agree. Before accusing a person of being a scammer, one needs to have all their ducks in a row with proof via messages and texts.

It's very true that we let our emotions get the best of us. My son is very much into collecting cars, and he told me emotions play a big part in that community, too. I think it can apply to anything that is a valuable collectible.

Thank you so much for your input, Debra. It was very helpful and confirmed what I have been thinking for so long.

[dianareed]

I feel your pain, Diana. It’s gotten so scary to sell. I strictly sell on DollFan so I can see buyer’s feedback.

Thank you, Tracy. I'm going to do the same.

[dianareed]

There are honest doll artists, and collectors, on FaceBook, however, the real scammers, and thieves, hang out there, too.

Yes, I agree, and it's unfortunate.

[dianareed]

I've successfully sold a couple dolls on Facebook, and it did occur to me, Diana, that i would be (potentially) dealing with people i didn't know at all...and that was a bit scary. So, i added the below to each listing i made:

Price is $--- shipped in the USA. I will need proof of positive eBay feedback (at least 15 feedback ratings)...otherwise, payment is by PayPal Friends/Family. My eBay name is 2northwooders and i have 337 transactions/100% positive. I also have an Etsy shop - quietdove - with a 5 star rating.

It's like...i share my feedback, you share yours.

Yes, I agree with you, Thia. Checking their feedback is necessary.

[dianareed]

The internet has made all the scammers and con artists come out of the woodwork. It's so easy now, that it seems there's more of them than honest people.
Personally, I only buy my dolls from members on here that I have known and done dolly deals with before. I don't sell on Facebook, but I have bought some of my doll clothes from on there.
I've only ever been scammed twice, and because of that, I won't buy from or sell to anyone I don't know. I don't know of any other way to protect ourselves from them. They know all the loopholes and cons, that honest people just can't beat them. It's such a shame, because it takes the joy out of our hobby.
So, my purchases and sales will only be here on Doll-Fan.

Thank you for your input, Annette. I too, will follow suit. From now on, I will sell only here on DF. I, too, am getting pretty gun-shy to sell to, or buy from, anyone I don't know.

[dianareed]

I only sell on FB it has been a huge boost to my business. Again just like anywhere though you have to protect yourself. And the good thing about Fb you can block people that aggravate you lol

LOL! Yes, but you can block members on DF, too! LOL You have protected yourself very well. I admire the fact that you decided to use a contract when doing business. I'm not a doll artist; I'm a collector, so I think I will stop selling on FB, and rethink a few things. Thanks so much, Debra! You've been a great help!

[LadyFortuna]

I have bought once from fb but only from a reasonably known artist in the community and/or Youtube if they do not have a website.

Interestingly, I found DF a nice contrast to the usual online market places I’m used to prior to joining like eBay or Craigslist (not that I would buy dolls from the latter). I saw an honour system in place with very honest sellers even going out of their way to point out flaws on the babies they are selling. It’s old school in a nice way where people even put their real names in but that is something I am very cautious doing (same thing goes for YouTube). So my take here is DF is the best place to buy and sell given you can see both party’s feedback but I would be cautious putting my personal info - even my first name on a public forum like this (I don’t mind in private) - given that you can be profiled by piecing together your historical post. Also, scammers could also be hackers and backend info (like IP location) about users of a public forum can be easily traced. I’m assuming long time members here are aware of that?? This issue bothers me but I play along since it seems to be the norm here.

Anyway, DF is awesome compared to anywhere else so I stick here.

[dianareed]

I have bought once from fb but only from a reasonably known artist in the community and/or Youtube if they do not have a website.

Interestingly, I found DF a nice contrast to the usual online market places I’m used to prior to joining like eBay or Craigslist (not that I would buy dolls from the latter). I saw an honour system in place with very honest sellers even going out of their way to point out flaws on the babies they are selling. It’s old school in a nice way where people even put their real names in but that is something I am very cautious doing (same thing goes for YouTube). So my take here is DF is the best place to buy and sell given you can see both party’s feedback but I would be cautious putting my personal info - even my first name on a public forum like this (I don’t mind in private) - given that you can be profiled by piecing together your historical post. Also, scammers could also be hackers and backend info (like IP location) about users of a public forum can be easily traced. I’m assuming long time members here are aware of that?? This issue bothers me but I play along since it seems to be the norm here.

Anyway, DF is awesome compared to anywhere else so I stick here.

Thank you so much for your input. I have removed both of my for sale babies from FB. I’m going to stick with DF.